Doc, you pose a very interesting and valid point that I hadn't yet heard.

Very very interesting.

awesome point of view doc, and so very true.

OK...where to start...first off I'm going to try and not flame here so cut me some slack...I'm not very good at pure debate without the personal insults...if I err...I ask your forgivness ahead of time


Basic Gov't 101

Dictatorship(totalitarianism)

The Idea that 1 man is smarter then 1 million
("what was that...I wasn't listening")
EX: 1 man decides how 1 million will live

Democracy

The Idea that 1 million men are smarter then 1
(I repeate, "what was that...I wasn't listening)
EX: 1 million men decide how 1 indavidual will live

Anarchy

The Idea that every man is smart enough to decide how he and he alone will live
(what was that...I still wasn't listening)
EX: What is right for your neighbor isn't neccesarily what's right for you




God vs Darwin

This I don't have an answer for...only a few meanderings and rants....I find it very hard to believe that one being, omnicieant, omnipotent, and all powerful, with the ability to creat and destroy universes could possably have his opinion swayed by the meager thoughts and mutterings of an indavidual being of his creation....I also cannot believe that out of several hundred religions around the world that He could expect you to choose the right one else he'll throw a temper tantrum and torture you for all eternity...of the several thousand "GODS" that human kind has worshiped in the course of recorded history, not one of them has had better morals/compassion then a spoiled 3 year old kid.......on the other hand........I also find it very hard to believe that some billions of years ago some elements "just happened" to get togeather to creat chemicals that "just happened" to form globs of matter that "just happened" to create a living THING that "just happened" evolve into myself sitting here typing at a keyboard....I'm sorry, the statistical probablity of something even close to that happening in a universe as large asa ours with matter objects being so far spread apart is non existant...so the "just happened" theory dosen't work for me either...and for those who are familiar with logic...this is one problem that Occams Razor cannot slice....I know of no rule for helping decide between two different circumstances BOTH of which are EQUALLY IMPROBABLE....then if you wish there is the 3rd theory...Aliens...somehow way back when aliens dropped our ancestors off here on this planet...personally...this is just a crock of shit...nice science fiction...but still shit....all this little rant comes down to is this...


WHO CARES

we will all be dead soon enough....and when that happens we'll know the answer...why worry about it now...life is too short to bitch about what other people think...if they agree with you...fine...kewl...you'll prolly be good friends....if they don't....F*CK 'em...you'll still prolly be good friends...but if we must have an answer to fill your mind with lets take a look at the natural laws of the universe...if an animal was smart and caught a fish and ate it...and another one was stupid and went hungry....which one would live longer...which one would be a better provider for and teacher of his children(yes I know it's using eveloution as the example)....now which one of those 2 animals do you think God would prefer....which one would help to continue His plan....all this is saying though is that the smart and able survive and the stupid die out...


you know what....this has gone on long enough already...next time lets have a go at solipsism....at least with that no one ever expects an answer[/u]

dammit...that did turn into a rant

"You know what really Grinds My Gears...."

dammit...forgot my rebuttle on gov't

let me just put it this way

Government is general is wrong. It is wrong for one man to controle another mans decisions. If he's not smart enough to come to the right sooution, let him suffer the consequences. The difference is Power. Those who have the motivation for Power will always believe in government, while those who don't will always do as they please anyways. Mankind has two, just two politcal parties, those who wish to control others and those who have no such wish. All else is folly.

Anarchy is stupid. You need goverment, because people aren't smart enough to live withought one. Sure there are some who would do just well, but then you have the lagging morons. Goverment is needed for control, and make sure we don't all start killing ourselves, taking our own shares of land, and becoming barbarians.

Those people who arn't smart enough to live without someone else telling how to tie their shoes need to die off anyway. Those "Lagging Morons" are the reason why we have so many problems as it is. EX: The Returds who wouldn't evacuate New Orleans before a F*CKING catagory 5 hurricain hit even though they had many days warning in which to do so.

I'm not saying that Gov't isn't neccesary. But deeming something neccisary does not make it good.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't kill myself if there was no Gov't. In the course of History the only thing that has stopped someone from taking a "share of land" was someone else standing on it, defending it with his life, and saying this is MINE! As for becoming Barbarians...what do you think we are now?...Civilized? Lmao! There is more murder, rape, theft, and slavory now then there has been in the entire course of the human race. And you call THIS civilized?

This I pledge to myself,

...my life, my fortune, and my sacred honor.

can you say the same? How do you think you would fare if the Gov't just dissapeared? Would you do "...just well"? Or would you be one of those "Lagging Morons"

Any form of Gov't exists to create and uphold laws. Laws are rules. Rules exist to protect, not to inflit harm.

If anyone could tell me honestly that they obeyed a law because it was in fact a law, not because of the consequences of breaking that law, I would believe sub-intellegence or self deception.

It all boils down to choice and morals. Morals are based on instinct and training. Choice is based on those morals. If you had your choice would you rather have a plasma screen Tv or a 13 in. black and white? Plasma Right? So what's stopping you from going down to the nearest electronics store loading one up and driving home? Morals? Guess again. Morals are difined by our actions to others. Who would you be hurting? Name one indavidual person? You can't. Yeah, the company would be hurt. But they have insurance that would pay for it. The insurance company? Nope, thats the whole reason it exists. So whats stopping you? This Mystacal concept we have called the Law. Is there a specific law that states "It is prohibited for a person to steal a Tv"? No, but you know that there are consequences of that law. And that is why you don't do it.

yay capatilism

HAHA. First off, I want to give Green(v)an props for promoting anarchism while bashing statism (both totalitarianism and democracy).. Ideally I am an anarcho-capitalist however pragmatically, for those of you who will argue with me forever about the supposed "necessity" of government I will concede to being a *very* limited government libertarian - basically a minarchist)

As I've said before, I am agnostic .. I really dont give a shit if Bush says to "pray for Katrina victims" however I do mind when he misconstrues a religious conviction with a statist one by turning around to piss $200 billion OF OUR MONEY away in "disaster aid." Was the prayer not enough? :lol:

Here's something to consider when it comes to government...

All forms of government have their advantages as well as their disadvantages. In an ideal society, I believe all of them would certainly work. However, the downfall of all of them is not found in the word of the legislation nor the inspiration behind it, but it is found in the failures of the individuals responsible for upholding it.

The real question is which government would reduce the risk of corruption.

And having that question in mind, you may as well consider the examples we have in history...

The most notable being that several weastern civilizations have risen and fallen over the centuries, yet China has maintained a comparably stable government over dynasties (approaches 1000's of years).

Which brings us to the next question... What is the role of the government? Preserve Peace? Preserve itself? Preserve the people? We can go on and on...

* Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries BY A GOVERNMENT, which we might expect in a country WITHOUT GOVERNMENT, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer.

Society is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our POSITIVELY by uniting our affections, the latter NEGATIVELY by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first a patron, the last a punisher.

Enough said. Thomas Paine owned all of our asses :)

Heer Heer!!!


Thomas Pain for the win!
Thomas Jefferson too!

"In a world without leaders, who'd start all teh wars?
In a world without leaders, who'd make people starve?
The world that we're saving, will always be yours."
-The Offspring

First off, there will always be war. Even withought world leaders, this is not a perfect world. It's human nature to war, so get used to it. And i don't think goverment is evil, i think that it is a vital system that we need to live. We all pay taxes which goes into helping with the streets, schools, and other things.The more i learn about our goverment, the more i agree. We have a choice in what happens, people just don't F*CKING try and change it. We select our presidents, governors, and other officials. We have total control over this goverment, but fail to take advantage of it.

"We have total control over this goverment, but fail to take advantage of it."

Are you F*CKING kidding me?

The obvious elitism in the current and relatively recent past instances of the US government aside, the US federal government BY DESIGN was created to MINIMIZE the influence of the people. Our founders opposed democracy, and for that very reason sought to restrict such "total control" of the government by its people. There was an awesome quote to this end but I can't find it right now :( Anyway, Initially, the constitution only allowed people to 'elect' their house representatives, and president/vice president. They were to have *zero* direct influence on the senate and judiciary. And on top of that, only 1/3rd of the 50 senators are up for re-election at any given time. Again, the purpose of all of this is perhaps a more "stable" government but that entails a less "democratic" or "representative" government as you've asserted exists.

I'm not saying absolute democracy would be better -- on the contrary. Could it be worse? That's debatable.

So, we obviously have no such "total control" over our government from within the system itself. However, to the extent that, ideally, the government exists to serve us, we have every right to "alter or abolish it" by whatever means necessary.. Though, I'm not exactly looking forward to an armed revolution against the US government as our sole means to exercise our "political freedom" :?

Oh, and before I forget, the assertion that "war will always exist" is historically inaccurate. What history shows us is that warfare was typically (and most promimently) exercised by governments (against governments). It's not as likely that in a world without government, we would see "world wars" like we've seen in the past. There would be no centralized IRS or Federal Reserve to steal/"borrow" money for the purposes of war on such a large scale.

Does that mean it would be UTOPIAN without government? Certainly not. Communities could have disagreements but they would be more likely to solve them diplomatically than through "warfare" -- because it would not be as viable an option as it is with (centralized) government.

Count Me IN!!!
armed revoloution?....what do you think all these 1st person shooters are for?...PRACTICE

its not the fact that theres not classes for what to do after you get out of high school what to with your life afterwards its the fact that some kids are lazy and they look for the easy way out
Yes while your in school your suppose to get good education and have fun and your parrents are suppose to be able to support you through school but its also hard and your family when your parents can't even support you when they can't even support themselves I know from experience that not all familys get the luxury of having all the nice stuff that some people have so when all in doubt some students out of high school do have what they need to succeed
I know that this is getting off the subject of religion and what not but its going off what doc said about students/kids not being ready for what is ahead of them when they should be

so in doubt im going to have to agree with doc but there are stuff that you can do to help you go along with what you need to be doing to get you ready for what you are going to do and always have a second paln

Icmp please show me facts so i can be appeased. I have no doubt you are right, because you sound very intellegent, i would just like to read the material.

wow a lot has been said.. these are just a few of my thoughts...

calculus

first, theres nothing more important than calculus Doc, sorry but without calculus most of the modern mathematical and scientific discoveries would have never came to be....

religion (mainly Christianity)

i can write a book.... why people have religion? to try and generalize something that they dont understand... another reason, to control other people... think about the IQ of the masses during the reign of the Holy Roman Empire and also through the Dark Ages... most people couldnt read so churches were made with horrifying sculptures and carvings depicting Hell and the Devil in order to scare people into believing that they had to live a certain way... i dont have time to expand...

god (mainly religious god)

to think that my god created me so i can worship him and give him thanks makes me vomit... just because the universe is so big and complicated (to humans) doesnt mean whatever created it is omnipotent and all knowing... if anything just realize that if not for the universe there would be nothing and nothing is absurd so therefore the universe... sorry i'm a sort of an existential guy...

aww my gf just paged me i'll continue this later :)