A simple Example:

The lie to the children:
"You kids settle down and go to sleep. Me and your mother are tired and you're keeping us awake!"

The truth:
"Hurry up and go to sleep, because I want to have sex with your mom and shoot my load on her tits."

See? There's no need for them to know the truth in that situation, right? So... there ARE circumstances in which it would be better to twist the truth to avoid damaging the child's development. If we can agree on that point, then the other peices begin to fall into place. Now, that doesn't mean that it should become a free-for-all of deceit and lies, but I don't think there was anything wrong with the traditional values that were taught to American children years ago.

It seems like the more they get exposed to the losers on MTV talking about extreme California lifestyles, the more they get a sense of entitlement just for existing. They think that, just because they exist, they can look and act anyway they choose, and people that don't love them for it are ignorant, closed-minded bigots. Also, if they can't find work or just feel bad about themselves and can't work effectively, they don't think it's fair that other people have lots of money and they don't.

Let's all play Robin Hood.

Now, I'm not a hardcore conservative. I know I might come-off as one, but I'm forced to make my strongest and most conservative statements to create some balance in discussions regarding liberal approaches to child-raising and education. An unchecked and unregulated free-market would be the downfall of every small business in this country. I do believe in balance. But the values of patriotism and loyalty to the country should not be optional. I don't understand how anyone in their right mind can love the USA because they have the right not NOT love the USA, and still insist on not saying the pledge or saluting the flag, or whatever other patriotic thing floats their boat.

People protest the pledge just to prove that they have the freedom to choose. I'm not saying everyone needs to conform and wear uniforms, but damn it someone has to take responsibility for the bus and say "shut the F*CK up and get back in your seats". It's the same theory. Children learn obedience and respect from those actions. What actions have we replaced them with? How will they learn respect and obedience?

I ♥ the corpsehumper.

I know which one you tell YOUR children.

I have a lot to say on this subject, but I don't think it would be a good first post. I just have a question for Angry Kitten.




Why wouldn't you trust a politician if he doesn't have religion?

Religion (christianity/judaism/buddhism) generally (not always. Understand I am NOT saying always, and that I understand that with religion often comes massive amounts of money/power/corruption) instills morals into its followers.

A religious person is generally a person with some morals, and we certainly need political leaders with morals.

I think Gman hit the nail mostly on the head.

The other part is that religion also instills in people that they have a connection to the wisdom of their deity, should they ask for it. It's a thing to me like, "Lord, Guide my hand, but do not let me oppress your free willed people in your name."

Sigh. I was hoping this thread would die, but:

Durango, anyone and their mother can google and cite hundreds of URLs purportedly supporting a given position -- I looked at a few of the ones that you cited and, especially the timeline one which "is a fairly accurate timeline" regarding the foundation of America and I beg to differ. For one, the foundation of America dates to at least the middle of the 1600s with the early British colonies. Starting at a seemingly arbitrary date and event (French-Indian wars) seems a bit unfair and doesn't lend towards the accuracy one bit. That alone wouldn't be too bad, but why F*CKING bother mentioning the chronology of the state ratifications of the constitution without mentioning the last state, RI, and the implications surrounding it? One thing that I did enjoy was:



Those god-damned narrow-minded Rhode Islanders! So much for your "I bet most of the american population were not so anti-authority/government"

What you'd have learned in 1790 when RI finally did ratify, is that:

http://www.rilin.state.ri.us/studteagui ... hapt3.html

Effectively, The new federal government told RI, "join us or else" - Does that satisfy your concept of freedom? Did you learn that in American History?

As for religion, to each their own, personally I'm ideally an atheist, but pragmatically (since, i'm just an error-prone human) I subscribe to agnosticism.

As for my attempt to steer the argument in another direction, I'll try to clarify.

Instead of arguing for more "freedom" in schools, you should ideally argue against the public education system overall. You have every right to salute the flag, and pray to whatever god that you want.. However, you have NO right to force me (personally, or through government) to help you pay for it. Your education and your childrens education is entirely your responsibility and absolutely none of societys. I was mocking the apparent praise of "uncle sam" when we should praise no such aspect or institution of government - ever.

Just try to consider all of that with an open mind, instead of being so quick to accuse me of being narrow-minded.

Whoa. And to angry kitten, think about your last post.. Trust politicians with religious convictions because it gives them a "connection of wisdom to their deity"? :shock:

Is George W Bush not "religious" in your eyes? How many people has he forcably oppressed or indirectly killed in these last 5 years? Not counting the "voluntary" soldiers "fighting" right now ?? We should trust him because he is RELIGIOUS? He will DO THE RIGHT THING?

And *IM* the F*CKING confused, delusional one?!

I understand that, but to me it seems that most God-fearing politicians aren't very Christian like. They slander people and (to me at least) seem to promote hate. I am an atheist (gasp) but I also have a high moral standing. I believe the whole "Do unto others as you want done to you." bit. Thats not the whole basis of my ethics, but its a lot of it. Trying my hardest to never lie and so on is a lot of it too.

Sorry to get so off topic.

Back to the war. I'm not totally against the war. To me we should do one of two things ::

1. Pull all of our troops out and leave Iraq to its civil war which seems to be starting up and unavoidable with the amount of troops we have in now, or

2. Put more troops in and quit half-assing it like we are now.

I wouldn't go so far as to compare Kerry to Jane Fonda. Sure Kerry came back and protested the war... sure he threw his medals away and so on and so forth. But to throw those medals away he first had to earn them. Which he did. To attack Kerry on his military record as a Bush supporter [as many did, effectively unfortunately] is the height of hypocracy. Sure Kerry is a northeastern liberal, but so am I... so I voted for him. Hell, I'd vote for Ted Kennedy if he ran again. :D

bull shit


Commercial Construction...these people work their asses off 5-6-sometimes 7 days a week...out doors all day with heavy equipment....they work harder then any other in existance....name one person who has been a construction worker 20 years and is successful

There's a difference between hard work and hard labor.

Hear Hear

Beautifully Spoken

here is how the system works on a single life

Birth
From Birth to the begining of school most people don't even know what patriotism means

Forced into a Public school system
Alternative: Private school
Question: Who decides what is allowed to be a private school? And who regulates said schools once they have been approved?
Answer: Gov't

School
Pledge of allegance forced upon impressionable minds before they know they have a choice....might not say much but it sounds like brainwashing to me

Learning History - what is the First part of history that a child learns in schools? Thanksgiving - you remember pilgrims and indians...what they didn't mention at the time was that only a few years later those same pilgrims were pilaging and raping those same indians...still...the young and impressionable mind...don't give the children a chance to decide the other direction....next is local history...usually State history....Next is country history and then finally when they have been brainwashed for about 9 years straight, world history....all of these "approved" history's being taught as written by the "approved" writers...next time you want to learn something....pick up a copy of a brittish or a russian or even a swedish history textbook....you'll be suprised at the changes