what leagues were you in when you played competitive?

primarily cal-m

I would just like to say this to doc...what we saw on the demos did look like hacks and im sure doc would agree. We did what we thought what needed to be done at the time and I trust mithrils judgement. I apologize to doc if it turns out that it wasnt hacks but dont chastise us for tring to keep the game on n00bfest fair and hack free. Again doc at first some of us were defending you but after looking at the demos carefuly we all decided that it was to suspicious to let slide and we posted the demos for you and everyone to see. Its nothing personal

"its nothing personal, just business." enough said.

I still dont get how lag can cause bullets to go in a different direction than the crosshairs, DOC would u mind explaining?

rofl, ive seen doc play, he don't cheat, and how can a bullet going away from the crosshair mean that he was hacking?

when you aim at the feet and it hits in the head it's eh...F*CKIN BULLSHIT

and doc said that it was due to lag, IM not tryin to be smartass I just dont understand why lag would caus this

lag doesnt "casue " that lag causes you to see that.

on his screen it doesnt look liek that, on his screen the crosshairs are on the dudes head

damn hippie,
There's an inherent problem with demos taken in spectator mode by users who are not local to the player being demoed.


let me explain it like this...


computer A ---60ms----> CZ server <---200ms---- computer B



In this situation, i used 200ms to dramatize the point. As you all know, when you play cz reguardless of latency, it will look smooth on YOUR computer. But how you look on someone else's computer is completely different. In other words, we've all seen that person that skips around and looks a bit choppy, yet everyone else seems to be pretty smooth... well, that is one artifact of lag.
In addition, the netcode on the CZ server must make lag compensation calculations to mesh everyone together... that means players with 20 ping, players with 300 ping, players with 60 ping, and so on, can all play together harmoniously. Otherwise, low pingers will dominate... sorta like in quake2. Lag compensation evens the playing field and gives higer pingers a fair chance (well as close to it as possible).
Now go back up to the example: So now you understand that the server has to do a little math to figure out who shot first. B/c if it went stricly by ping, the 60ms player would usually win because the server would be waiting on the 200ms player like he had slow reflexes (even though the 200ms pinger may have actually pressed the fire button first). However, with lag compensation the server takes into account the latency of the players and mathematically determines who ACTUALLY shot first.
So far it sounds like a pretty solid system... until you consider moving hit boxes... or moving players. The server now has to dertmine spatially wher e each player is... now since the server is ultimately using lag compensation to dertmine the exact location of each player... that means what you see on your own screen at home may not actually be what the server sees... for example, how many of you have missed a hs on an afk or easy target.... YET YOU SWEAR THE CROSSHAIR IS DEAD ON... I have and i'm sure many other players have also witnessed this phenomenon. Well, it goes down to server netcode... it's simply not perfect.
Are you guys following this so far?


computer A ---60ms----> CZ server <---200ms---- computer B

Now we get to the actual problem with remote demos. First a few definitions:
Remote demo: a demo taken in spectator mode by a non local player
Local demo: a demo recorded by the player himself.

Let's say Player A is going to make a remote demo of player B. So player A goes to spec mode and starts recording. Remember, Player A now has between him and player B a total of 260ms of lag time as well as a server that's performing lag compensation adjustments. The question of the day is what is player A in spec mode actually watching... i can assure you its definitely not what player b sees... that would be impossible considering the lag and the server btween them. I speculate that during spec mode, what you see is actually what your computer estimates to be the position of the crosshair (after lag) and the servers lag adjusted hitboxes and bullet registers. The server is not going to waste precious cpu cycles to adjust the crosshair for a spectator. Therefore, a demo taken in spec mode will be adversly affected by the amount of latency between the two players. Which means all the demos taken by spectators are flawed and will have issues with inaccuracy.

This is the reason why leagues require player demoes or local demos... not remotely recorded demos.

The demo recorded locally will show what the player really saw b/c there is no lag or lag compensation to mess with.

Hope this answers your question.

thanks for clearing things up, and yes i too have seen the afk headshot phenomenon

no problem... i like to edukate dem peepols.

i suggested this somewhere a few days ago.. there should be no harm in having any suspected players demo themselves and send n00bfest their demoes when they play...

after a week or so of sending demoes of yourself pooning you should be clear to play without further harassment... small price to pay for piece of mind...

now if when u demo yourself and Doc has a 15-35 record well then something is wrong cuz everyone knows Doc doesnt have off days ;)

i'd like to see your demoes anyway to help myself get better :) i'm a selfish motherfucker...

Yeah i want to watch some demo's for improvement also

alright... just give me a place to send them! Now... the first three are free... after that i start charging $29.95/ demo. I can't be spending all my free time recording, zipping, and sending demos.

hmmm... if i talk in the mic, does it record in the demo? Then I can pretty much narrate too!! lol

probably can talk to orex i know he uses syngaming.net to post things... also have u ever compared your zipped files to your regular files??? more than likely their about the same size....

wrong vision demos zip or rar rather well about 40 - 60 %

really? all the ones i've DLed from websites are rarely compressed any substantial amt...

when I get some time, I'll look at some upload client thingymabobs... or maybe a way for you to send the screenies to an anti-hacking admin via the website.

It dosne't record your own voice.. .-. i dun think. but it does others..