Actually Savagestrike, if you are one of those 'lazy fucks' who doesn't contribute to society or makes dick, you get to have insurance for free. For example, I'm definitely NOT lazy, but I made less than $12,000 last year. I get to have insurance for free.

Kwang, that's not because of Obamacare. That's been in place from the get go. Oregon Health Plan has been implemented for a long time, and other states have assistance programs like OHP. The crux is not with Obamacare, but the lazy F*CKERS that take advantage of the system. I believe there needs to be more health care reform that pertains this problem, but Obamacare is a step in the right direction, IMO.

Actually, it is part of Obamacare in the sense that it's extended to a much wider range of people. For example, I have "MaineCare" and there are special requirements for getting it, and there's a waiting list. There are people still on the waiting list who won't get it until Obamacare is in full effect. Furthermore, the income bracket is extended.

I don't actually 'want' to be on this. It makes me feel like a freeloader. Actually, in essence it 'makes' me one just because I'm poor. I'd rather be like acid_rain and not be in debt and not be beholden to someone I don't even know or associate with, who says that I am just because they say so. Too much of our personal independence went down the toilet the second insurance companies became the power brokers in controlling the way the nation's health care sytem operates (and before medicaid/medicare). Before that time came to be, it was much simpler and oftentimes services were provided for free or low cost 'just because' and the doctors took the hit. Granted now, doctors don't have to be unpaid, but there's mountain of paperwork and bullshit that needs to be gone through.

Yes it will open the door to a wider range of people, but the purpose of it is to open the door to the right people. Does this mean that only the right people will get healthcare? Probably not. But Obamacare can't fix that. If anything we need another bill to regulate how people get the free health insurance. If there is a legitimate reason that someone doesn't have a job and they lay at home, maybe they deserve health care. But the lazy ass that could easily be flipping burgers at BK should not get health care. Again, you can't blame Obamacare for that, this was implemented a long time ago.

Don't be so alarmist, mayn.




Super, when you say "fed," do you mean the Federal Reserve or the national government? I assume you mean the natl. govt. They can't make us buy something. Thats unconstitutional. They can raise a tax on us, though, to compensate for the amount of coverage the plan will inevitably leach money for ("since insurers now have to cover you regardless of what you have, you can't just wait to buy insurance until you get sick" etc etc). Raising taxes is an enumerated power given to congress. If we don't like the way they vote on bills, we replace them after two years (unless they're senators, then its 6). Because this bill wasn't a bill mostly regarding levying taxes, it didn't have to start in the house (per the constitution). The bill was passed after lots of revisions and now those same people want to repeal it. Pandering at its finest. The "penalty" is really not a penalty as much as its a tax to compensate for your perceived dead weight. Makes sense constitutionally. Its almost a game of semantics.

The precedent is a scary one, but its one that needed to happen. The Supreme Court made clear a power of Congress: the power to raise taxes... even sneaky ones such as this one. It shows the possibility of congress controlling/guiding the populace into living the way it wants through covering up penalties by calling them "taxes." Elect good representatives that represent your views or you may not like what happens. I DON'T think that the government is going to get away with anything now... and its alarmist to say so. I strongly believe in the system of checks and balances: it only passes if most congressmen say so. We elected those congressmen.

I could care less if our insurance companies tanked. I refuse to buy health insurance. I absolutely do not want to pay for something I do not need.

The reason I don't think it's out to help people like myself is because of two things. One is that I'm still being forced to buy something I don't want or I get punished. The second thing is, where does the government get the money to hand me said insurance since I make nothing? Where does this money come from? Who pays for it? They do and you do! I don't want a handout. I want my government to stop taking from my brothers and sisters and stop the hand-outs and get out of debt. You don't have to agree with me at all but I see this only as a good healthcare plan for those who are already employed, since most jobs give health insurance. I see this hurting small businesses and broke people such as myself. Sure, I'll get a tax credit at the end of the year, but if I owe one single thing on my taxes, that credit is gone. I no longer have the opportunity to fend for myself how I so choose.

I have a perfect driving record, and it's with my own two hands that I am out of debt with close to a 700 credit score. I don't want my government telling me what I have to do to protect myself. And I'm sorry but I'm not paying into a healthcare system that takes my money to take care of everyone else around me but myself.

My point is that out government is broke. This really isn't helping them get out of debt. Instead it's giving the poor blacks a ticket out (a tax credit) for free healthcare, while their children get free Medicaid until they're 26. Someone's got to pay for my healthcare, why should it be you? Why should I even get it if I'm unemployed?

I think if we all payed a higher tax on goods like Canada, that'd work much better. But I'm not paying taxes twice.

I think the most interesting part of this bill is in its clause that says something like:

The states are free to run their own version of this, provided it is more efficient than the federal statute.

This leaves the door open for evolution, if it fails or is inefficient the states can individually step in and take their own action to improve. I mean, some states like California that are already money-fucked won't be able to do this, but smaller states like Delaware, MD, Vermont, Rhode Island would be able to take this system and make it really effective. Will be interesting.

As for the 'I don't want to pay for health insurance because I never go to the ER' argument: okay so when you get randomly blow a tire out on the freeway and get roflstomped by a truck and have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of hospital bills, you're saying you can pay that out of pocket? Doubt it. The taxpayers are already paying the price for people without health insurance. I think this bill is aiming to build up a reserve using those peoples' money instead of taxpayers money.

If that ever happened I'd die before I payed a bill that large. That's exactly what I'm saying here... Why aren't we capping the cost of medical care to make prices lower? Furthermore, what effect does it have on you how I choose to pay for my healthcare? Liberty and free-will comes to my mind. This seems to me like a more communistic approach to a situation that will remain unchanged because of the cost alone of healthcare in general. Why should it cost someone $200 for a shot? America was founded on a free-will and earning and working hard to get what you want, not that I work harder so that I can take care of you.

If I got roflstomped by a truck, it wouldn't be my fault anyway, and that driver would be responsible for it.

So, I understand where you're coming from for the 'cap medical prices' but at the same time, wouldn't you want the doctors to have high wages so it attracts the best and brightest doctors?

If you're capping their premiums, less people will want to be doctors and you'll be losing some of the talent. I don't like the idea of that. Trade-offs everywhere, and none of us are really economists or prophets so there's no real way to predict the outcome of what-if situations.

As for the comment about what effect it has on me: as a single unit? Virtually none, but as a whole, if they choose to give you care while you're uncovered and you can't cover the cost... who do you think foots that bill? AFAIK it's the government, which derives its money from taxpayers.

Telling someone not to operate on you would raise enormous ethics issues and the cognitive dissonance as a populace would be pretty rough.

It was an example, and it really depends on what happened before your tire blew out. My point is that life is random. You can't say that you would never need healthcare in the future.

Also: tell me if I'm being condescending/dickish. Honestly not trying to piss you off. Just providing someone else's view.

No I cannot say that. But I can say a couple things, the bill is not a tax, it's a penalty. This bill is forcing Americans to conform to the properties of its existence. Where is the freedom of choice? There are more simple ways to rectify this issue that don't include capping the cost of healthcare, even though I feel it's right. Yes I'd love for doctors to get paid more, but don't you think if we stopped making things like pills and other healthcare supplies more expensive, that less people would need to go to the hospital? Isn't the end-goal to keep people out of the hospital? I know that cannot happen, but isn't that why medical researching, and pharmaceutical companies are in business to begin with?

Besides capping, as I mentioned there are numerous ways to deal with the so-called fraudulent cases. One is to offer an opt-out from the healthcare system completely, then deny coverage under the healthcare system for a year. People know good and well when they opt out what they are choosing. I guarantee you that in no case ever recorded did someone purposely crash their vehicle into someone else so they could pay less on their hospital bills. Now, as far as things like car insurance is concerned, don't you think that forcing more people to fork out more of their hard-earned cash against their own freedom of choice would cause more people to make false claims because they can't afford their car payment? It would be wise to think so.

Now back to the big issue. People such as myself won't even qualify for these so-called tax credits because I'm unemployed. So that means that I absolutely must find a job just to pay in to healthcare because I am forced to. To me that sounds like the line you'd see at a large corporation that just closed down and has no money to give their workers (think Death Race opening scene when he walks up to get his hard-earned cash and gets a measly few bucks...) it's hard enough for people to find jobs right now and afford their bills, how are people to just make money out of thin air (maybe we should consult the Federal Reserve on this one) to pay this "tax" (no, penalty!)?

You CANNOT replace freedom of choice with equality. That's called communism.

can't really add much to this whole conversation but from all i read, 99% of the bill is great, only one that part that rustles people the F*CK up (as usual in politics) is the 'mandate'. idk, but i like acid_rain's idea, good shit yo

Acid, I'm wondering if you read the bill, or the post by Headshot. Part of the bill is aimed at decreasing the cost of pills and medical supplies, and if you're making under $200,000 a year, there is virtually no effect on you.

As for the "penalty", think of it as a tax. Basically it's a minute tax that helps with the funding and keeps the insurance companies from tanking. What does this mean for you? It means that you may have to fork out a couple more bucks in taxes if you don't have healthcare, but if you have healthcare you don't have to pay the tax.

I don't buy for one second that this bill is going to screw you as much you think it will. You say it's hard to get a job, but the truth is that it really isn't as difficult as it used to be five years ago. Want proof? I got another job just two days ago. I didn't have any previous experience, and my daddy didn't get me the job, I did it on my own. I may not be saving the world or anything, but I'm making money that pays for my college degree. I am a working class American that goes to school and pays my taxes, and this bill will virtually have no effect on me. There is no increase in my taxes because I have insurance, and with Obamacare, it gets cheaper for me and for the rest of our country.

I just wanted to add a tidbit to Hooker little fact that states can opt out if they're implementing their own system.

This is true and vermot will be applying in the future as they're going to iniate a statewide single-payer system

Oregon will apply as well but i don't know about their system.

this bill doesnt affect the majority of the public, for the most part. But it does F*CK the small business owners that are required to get health insurance for their employees. That mandate of making them provide insurance could be the decider on if they stay in business or fire everyone and shut down.

Well a small business of 50 or more people. Having that many employees typically means you're a successful small business. Not saying it's perfect, but it's a start.

Everyone who pays taxes now has to buy insurance, and it will be reported and filed via your taxes to the IRS.
If you have employee or a government program insurance, then you do not have to buy it.
If you do decide not to buy insurance they will take the penalty (which goes up a percentage every year) straight from your taxes/pay checks.
Noone gets free anything.
Paying the penalty tax does not give you healthcare, eventually this will be a criminal act because the bill is subect to change.(mis-demeanor)

If you got disability from the VA like me, you will not have to buy it. Same goes if your job already gives you healthcare.

Actually, 26year olds and under can stay on their parent's plan. so They gey the free healthcare, unless their parents do not wish to keep them on their plans when they get a job, Those kids are the ones who are gonna have it bad.


So yeah if you got VA disablity, then you are good, you don't pay shit cuz the government is already insuring you. This tax will affect some 30 million Americans.

I read up to 'get roflstomped by a truck' and couldn't read anymore.

Goddamn thats funny.

I'm curious as to how they define being able to "afford" insurance -- it says "if you can afford insurance but do not get it, then you will be charged a fee."


My stance on this is that it's stupid liberal bullshit and the Government sucks at running shit so they should just probably stop. Down with big government, up with Liberty.

The government doesn't get jack from taxpayers. All of that money goes to pay the interest on the money the government borrows from the Federal Reserve. Whenever Congress does a budget these days, that budget is based upon the amount they plan on borrowing and then authorizing the Treasury to request that the Federal Reserve print that money. If every single American were to give the Federal Reserve every single asset they owned, monetary or otherwise, the value of all of that (including land, clothing and food) wouldn't add up to more than 80% of what the Federal government owes to the Federal Reserve.

If you pay taxes and are employed, you are required to have health insurance.

If your employer or the government already gives you healthcare, then you are good.

That's it, Gman, if you don't have health insurance, than by 2014 you have to buy it, if you don't it's a $95 penalty in 2014, then $395 in 2015, and $695 in 2016. They don't say how much it will go up after that. : /

Here is the final ruling and law in full
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... ocument/p2