The truth behind why refresh rates DO matter


Let's start with a few facts:

LCD

Response time: 4ms-30+ms

Refresh rates: 60-75hz


CRT

Response time: 2ms or less

Refresh rate: 60-160hz (depends on the quality of your monitor and resolution you're

using)


Goal of this article: 1) To explain why LCD is limited in its capability at showing fast

moving frames (ie. blurring and ghosting in first person shooter games) 2) Demonstrate a

way people with CRT monitors can replicate LCD faults.


We'll begin with a discussion on how response times, refresh rates, and frames per second

relate.
Response time is the measure of time for a pixel to change from grey to grey or

black to white (depends on manufacturer's marketing department on which is the better

number). In other words, response time tells you how fast the screen can show you a new

image. Taking that into account, using a little math, we can calculate the maximum number

of frames per second a given response time can handle. CRT monitors, for all intents and

purposes, have a negligible response time, therefore allows a theoretical max fps of

500fps. This means that the response time will never be a bottleneck for the CRT monitor.

LCDs on the otherhand are affected by slow response times and do play a factor in FPS

output. For example, a theoretical 12ms response time is able to update the screen 83.333

times in 1 second.

Math: 1 second / .012 seconds = 83.3333 max frames per second


Refresh rate is the number of times a monitor draws or updates/refreshes the

screen per second. Refresh rate is calculated in hertz. To put it simply, we can also

consider refresh rate in terms of frames per second. Therefore, a refresh rate of 100hz

will allow for a maximum 100 frames per second to be seen. And you can then follow a 60hz

refresh rate means a maximum of 60 frames per second. The refresh rate is dictated by the

type of graphics card you use but limited by the monitor in use. So if you set a refresh

rate that the monitor doesn't support, the screen will go blank or you'll cause damage to

the screen.

Math: 60hz = 60 max frames per second


Frames per second is the measure of frames being drawn per second. Usually this

term is used in reference to video cards and games. Today's graphics cards can pump out

frames per second in the hundreds for some game titles. The more frames per second

potentiates a smoother appearance while playing a game. As you may have noted by now,

three main factors affect the ultimate performance of how many frames you ACTUALLY

observe... the response time, refresh rate, and the graphics card. So its easy to see how

even though your graphics card may be reporting 300fps in a game, you're observed fps is

actually a lot lower. The Observed frame per second is limited by the weakest of the

three factors.


Now, we can appropriately discuss the LCD's weaknesses in fast pace games. When LCDs

first came out for consumer use, it was common to see response times of 30+ms or

greater... that calculates to a horrible 33.3 frames per second or less. Refresh rates

were at 60hz and let's assume you had a video card that could push 100 fps with no

problem. That means the response rate of the old lcds was the bottle neck. As any gamer

knows, 33 frames per second is horrible to look at (for those of you who doubt this, we

will replicate this on a crt monitor later in our discussion) So LCDs were not even an

option for fast gaming then... but then...

Recently, the LCD market is being flooded with low reponse time monitors... 16ms, 12ms,

8ms... and yes even 4ms. Bare in mind these are all manufacturers BEST numbers, but for

simplicity sake, we're gonna assume they truly perform that well.

Let's put down some figures: 16ms response time = 63 max frames per second
12ms response time = 83 max frames per second
8ms response time = 125 max frames per second
4ms response time = 250 max frames per second

Remember, we're assuming the manufacturer's have our best interest in mind and have

advertised these numbers because they're true (cough, bs, cough).

If have been following the discussion thus far, you will notice there is a HUGE

discrepancy in response time and refresh rate. Yes, even though a 4ms response time will

deliver a possible 250 frames per second, being capped with a refresh rate of 60 hz will

limit your Observed frames per second to 60 frames per seond. Sure you're graphics card

may be spittin out 250 frames/s, but the monitor is only asking for 60 of those frames...

the rest of those frames your expensive graphics card spits out is wasted and ends up

causing visual defects such as tearing (tearing is the phenomenon that occurs when the

graphic cards out put exceeds the refresh rate of the monitor). Suggestions to fix

tearing is to enable v-sync.... thereby limiting the graphics card output to match the

refresh rate. In the case of a 60hz lcd, that means your monster graphics card is now

outputtin 60 fps.

Bottom line is that the manufacturers have constantly improved the response times, but

have not considered increasing the refresh rate. The improvement of response times serves

more as a marketing tool, than actual performance gains. The 60hz refresh rate will limit

any gains from response time... As far as I'm concerned, a LCD monitor that can deliver a

mean 16ms response time will be able to perform optimally for a 60hz refresh rate... both

will be able to deliver 60 frames per second.

At this time, some of you may be saying, "bah, refresh rate doesn't matter for lcd because

there is no flickering. CRT's need higer refresh rates to counter flickering."

That is partly true... I agree. CRT's do need to achieve higer refresh rates to combat

the potential flicker. CRT's phosphors light up and darken almost instantaneously...

which results in flicker if the refresh rate is too low... at the same time this is CRT's

advantage in response time. LCD's don't need to combat flicker, b/c it's pixels persist

in an on state longer... they don't darken quickly... therefore no flicker. LCD pixels

only change when told to do so. That's why using an LCD at 60hz has no flicker. LCDs are

great for daily windows activities and stuff.

However when we get to fast pace games... LCDs fall apart. The limiting factor in many

LCD panels today is the 60hz or 75hz refresh rate. The response time is become less and

less of a factor in many cases. So many people disreguard the refresh rate, firmly

believing that it just doesnt come to play in LCDs. And in most situations, that's true.

But if you're a hardcore gamer, there is a difference between 60 fps, 85 fps, and 100 fps.

Yes the eye can percieve greater than 30 fps... I'm not hear to argue that... you can

google that yourself and find the truth. What I will do is allow some of you to replicate

on a CRT how an LCD would look when playing your current games.

The setup:

Counter-strike 1.6 or CZ
Graphics card that can push an average 100 fps in CS
CRT monitor set at a refresh rate of 100 hz
Enable v-sync always on in display properties


1) Start CS
2) Go into console
3) enter the command fps_max 100 (this will set CS to allow a max of 100 fps)
4) enter the command net_graph 3 (this will allow you to see the fps)
5) Start playing, run around and move the mouse around... observer the fluidity of the

movement.

6) now, enter the command fps_max 60 (this will simulate a refresh rate of 60hz of a LCD,

your CRT monitor should still have a refresh rate of 100hz, meaning it will draw 100

frames per second on your screen... even if they're redundant frames due to a 60 hz cap)

7) You should immediately see a difference... it will appear blurry when you move. That's

because now you're only updating at 60 frames per second, just like a LCD with 60 hz

refresh rate. The 100hz of the crt monitor will ensure that there is no flickering... it

essentially simulates the appearance of an LCD screens lack of flickering.


Well, that concludes this discussion. Hope this helps.

Dude, you seriously have entirely too much time on your hands. I could have told you before reading all that jibber-jabber that lcd sucks for gaming.

well, until they can repair my back, LCD it is.


I have no problem with my LCD monitor BY THE WAY.

poopy

I'll wait for the technology to get better before I give up my CRT.

besides, LCD monitors are very expensive.

If I was going to get one, it would be a Samsung.

but I still love my AOC Spectrum! woot!

Doc this pisses me off and ill tell you why.

1 You purchased a sub par lcd for gamingand now your mad.
2 Low refesh rates do not effect lcd's no matter what the game.
3 Everyone already knows that crt's are still superior at the moment,you aint the smartest motherfucker in the world.
4 Half of the bible you wrote is bullshit as in turning on v sync and locking at 100.....that will cause tearing.
5 And last but not least the fact that you think anyone that would use lcd is not "hardcore".


Theres so much wrong with all that crap you posted but life is just too short .

Aw now... this seems kinda harsh people.

I for one appreciate the time that went into the technical blahblahblah up there, even though I didn't read the entire thing.

I can tell you this much; I have a nice CRT and a very nice 19" LCD and that expensive 19" LCD still doesn't hold a candle to a real CRT.

Don't get me wrong, they are WAY better than they used to be, but they're still not up to the quality of glass yet.

Super,

1)lol... i did research and in the area of 32" LCD tv's samsungs ln-r329d is one of the best.

2)reread the part on the refresh rate... i specifically explain the reason... and then try the experiment if you have the equipment available.

3) My intention was not to flex my smarts... my intention was to explain technically what is going on in LCD's when it comes to fast player games.

4) I hope you know the part about v-sync on at 100 is on a CRT... and no it causes no tearing... i explaine how tearing is caused... syncing the refresh rate with the video card makes them work better together... I have a 24" Sony gdmfw900 running at 1280x960 100hz when playing cs... i get 100 fps from my ati x800 pro... No tearing at all... and i'm not missing a beat (or shot).

5) and lastly, I believe there is a time and place for LCD's... lan parties or space/weight limitations.

I'm not asking anyone to get upset over this... rather i encourage all of you to run the experiment... and set up everything correctly.

It's amazing how many ppl don't even fix their refresh rate when it comes to opengl games running in a Winxp environement. Did you know that in Winxp, reguardless of your desktop refreshrate, when you switch to a opengl game, it will clock your refresh rate down to 60hz... You need to tweak it either using a program that came with yoru vid card or a third party program like reforce.exe or powerstrip... This will allow you to lock the refresh rate to 100hz and then you can turn on vsync and actually get 100 fps. Make sure you CRt monitor supporst this...

Many ppl dont' spend enough time to understand the components ... or even tweak their system. I made this post so as to help inform ppl...



peg penis,

try the experiment at the bottom with your crt monitor... and you'll see that it will simulate the appearance of your LCD.



to everyone else,

If you have any questions or need any help with tweaking performance in xp or cs, i'm always here. I'll help as much as I can.

i still got my 19" lcd for 350$ with a 8ms and 75hz and there is no blurr or ghost or anything so i win this one plus super approved this one for me to buy :D

Ok here goes.
1 You purchased a tv and expect it to behave like a monitor,your mistake.

2 Since LCD monitors do not employ phosphors, refresh rate is not a concern. Basically, the transistors in the LCD remain open or closed as needed until the image changes. This can be a point of confusion for some consumers, however, since most graphics cards still "ask for" a refresh rate setting. This is due to the analog nature of existing graphic cards and their support for CRT displays. While refresh rates do not apply to LCD monitors, most LCDs are set up to accept any settings from 60Hz and above.

3 Who are you to explain the pros and cons of lcd monitors when cleary you purchased a tv.

4 The problem with this experiment of yours is that your card***x800pro** cant run cz at a steady 100fps.I know this becuase i have a slightly better card and i cant sustain those numbers always.So yes you are missing a beat and a frame or two,Sync for the lose.

5 And lastly you have people to believe that gaming on lcd is just for lan,bullshit.AS long as you game at your native resolution theres is almost no differrence between crt and lcd.My only argument with you is that you are trying to have people believe that they will give up quality in gaming and thats just not true if you stay at your native resolution.I own more games than the local electronics boutique and have never had tearing or ghosting even on racing games.The only thing that has bad iq is webpages that are low res,becuase as i said they dont scale resolutions well.



gg

1) I've done the research. I know the difference. I own three LCD PC monitors already. Show me a lcd monitor that's larger significantly larger than my 24" CRT? The whole point was to improve real estate. Let me reiterate that again super, the whole point is to increase real estate. The TV was the only way to go... I am pretty familiar with the LCD technology available and how it works. I also looked at many lcd tv's and pc monitors.

2) I know how LCDs work. I know how the lcd changes only image and doesnt have to refresh to keep an image present. I explained in my previous posts that is why lcds do not have flicker. But, again, you missed my point. Due to the inherent limitation set by manufacturers to place a refresh rate of 60hz or 75hz on an lcd, the monitor will only post an update 60 or 75 times a second. In fast motion games, I can see the difference between 60 fps and 100 fps. I'm not even talkin about flicker... i'm talking about updates.
Here's an analogy... you remember those cartoon booklets that if you flip, you can see some sorta action going. Well, if the book is 100 pages, then a refresh rate of 100 is seeing the whole book with every page. If you had to pull every other page out of the book so that you're left with 50 pages... you'd essentailly have something simlar to a refresh of 50. All this assumes you take the same amount of time to flip through the book both times. In an lcd, its the same case... you're just spending more time on each page of a 60 page book.

3) lol... i did my research... and i was looking for more real estate, not just another monitor. I have plenty of lcd monitors lying around. you talk like i hate all lcds... all i'm saying is lcds are not good for fast pace gaming. As far as why i chose a tv... I wanted bigger.. (btw i said that already)
LCD technology in pc monitors and television monitors are similar. You're talking like they're worlds apart... they're not. There are three flavors of Lcds that can be found in both tv and pc world: TN, PVA/MVA, and S-ips. Each has its advantages and disadvantages... contrast, response times, color reproduction, etc... but there is one factor that remains the same in all of them... REFRESH RATE... its either 60 or 75hz. Thats the crux of my entire discussion.

4) i do sustain 100 fps almost all the time in cs/cz. And like i said, most people don't tweak or understand their system... I look at it from all angles and i spot the bottleneck. I then go about fixing that bottleneck... oh just incase you don't know what a bottleneck is super, it's a point of constriction or weakest link in a chain. You're bottleneck is your processor... you're graphics card can push more than your processor. That means you're never going to max out your graphcis card b/c your cpu will be maxed out before then. Upgrade your processor to an amd 64 4000+ and you'll see those framerates rise. My processor is close to balanced with my graphics processor. I chose a amd64 3500+ to put with my x800pro... and i do see 100 fps. I have v-sync on, fps_max set to 100, and I see my fps hover around 99-100.

5) there is a differnce... a picture book with 100 pages is smoother looking than a picture book with everyother page torn out... flipping through it in the same time interval. You just end up spending more time per page in the latter scenario. No flicker, but it will be choppier. I'm not arguing over feeling or impressions here... its mathematical fact. If you do the numbers that's it. The fact that WinXP says 60hz as a refresh, means exactly that... its only handing out 60 updates per second to that lcd monitor. The lcd monitor doesn't do some fancy lcd magic to compensate for the missing 40 framss... It just shows you those 60 frames a little bit longer... that means more discrepancy between each frame. 100+ updates makes it smooth as silk.. little discrpance between each frame. That's just fact..

Please... super... i hope you get it by now... someone pleae chime and and tell me you understand what i'm saying.

in CS refresh rate (say between 60 and 100) is usually a large game in sensitivity, but depending on some settings it may not make a difference. I play cs with 3.0 sensitivity, cpl mousefix, and the noforce commands @ 60hz, but on lan I play with 2.25 sensitivity cpl mousefix and @ 100-120hz since I have to move my sens around to adjust.

i get what your saying doc what you were looking for was a BIGGER monitor and you are talking about how lcds are not as good and that if people dont have their systems tweeked just right they wont be seeing the 100fps and by having their systems right means you have the right mix hardware in your computer to get you to that point ....now someone tell me what i just said? :?

Super, I don't want to make this too ugly, so let me offer what i'm saying from a different angle.

A LCD can make a decent gaming monitor if the following 2 requirements are met.

1) the lcd must keep its respone time at or below 12 ms over the whole spectrum (equivalent to 83 frames per second)

2) the lcd must be refreshing at 75hz.

This will allow a gamer to play at an OBSERVED 75 frames per second without the bottleneck of a response rate. (observed meaning what you actually see and not what the fps meter is telling you)

Conclusion: At 75 frames per second, I imagine the distinction between choppiness and smoothness falls into the realm of subjectivity. However, it still remains fact that the CRT will update more images per second than a LCD, but whether an observer notices the difference is up to the individual.

Speaking for myself, i can notice the discrepancy between 75 and 100... so for me the lcd would be a poor choice. For others, if you don't see the difference, an LCD may be the perfect choice.

Super, no hard feelings... I didn't mean to upset you or any other lcd fans. Hopefully, you find this post more amiable and fair.

My LCD rules.

Doc im not mad at all,i love a good debate.And i agree with alot of what your saying.I was just disagreeing with your original post that in general lcd gaming is poor.But i do agree that you will have to put up with some minor annoyances,but i have never had these problems in game myself.

I feel i should have explained that i play most games at 1280x1024 4aa 8af.Running most of todays games at those settings will keep ypur fps under 100 which i have no problem with.If i can hold around 85 frames in most games im happy.Image quality is far more important than frames to me in most cases.But that just me.

Now to touch on the sytem tweaks and bottlenecks.This could be argued till the end of time.As far as saying you can pull more frames than i can in cz becuase your system has components that you think are better matched is bull.After checking with ORB i find that my benchmarks are right in line for my video card no matter what the speed of cpu.I have been a futuremark onion for years now,so i do understand bottlenecks and tweaks.But as you said many people do not.

As a very satisfied lcd user i just felt someone needed to give a different perspective than yours.My intention was not to piss you off ***well maybe a little*** but to let people know that gaming on a lcd can be very good.

If you disagree with any of this post just tell me to F*CK off cause im tired of typing.

LOL

This seems to have shaped up much better today than yesterday.

heh heh....

F*CK off! and quit downloading and visiting those porn sites b/c its slowin your shit down...
hehe

and i still get 100 fps in cs/cz!

I smell boogers. WTF is that about?